Comments on “The scarcity of Dzogchen”

To be honest, I don’t understand this post. I don’t walk away any clearer on any aspect of Aro.

As an intro site, dropping a term like “ngondro” seems odd since it is key to understand this sect. Is my following summary of “Dzogchen nogndro” fairly accurate?

After you decide to learn dzogchen with a lama, you will be given three preliminary exercises to complete which will include:
(a) protestations (years of them)
(b) Kyil-khor practice (whatever that is) – (years of them)
(c) Mantra recitation (years of them)
After these are accomplished AND have had their effect, the student can proceeds to other teachings.

So, does Aro make their students do this? Or is that just part of “Madhyamika, or Tantric ngöndro” that you say are what other books teach?

What do you mean by saying Aro is these traditions “in drag”? You do MORE prostration, Longer Mantras?

All this is very confusing for folks like me – but maybe your are writing for other Nyingma folks who know all these controversies and shop talk? I will patiently await to see if future pages explain all the allusions made here. Who do you envision as your audience for reading these pages?

Hi Sabio,

Sadly, it’s prostrations you get with the Tantric ngöndro, not protestations, otherwise I’d probably be enlightened by now. :-)

Kyil-khor (Wylie ‘dkyil ‘khor’) is the Tibetan for Sanskrit ‘mandala’. A mandala is a representation of a world - traditionally in Buddhism, that would be the enlightened world or circle/entourage of the Buddha. Usually that aspect of tantric ngöndro involves putting together and taking apart a mandala - eg, a rice one on a shrine - one hundred thousand times.

Preliminary exercises quite often come in fours, not threes - the fourth one is the same as the practice for which the ngöndro are preliminary. So, in the Four Naljors, Lhundrup - the last one, is the result of the first three, and is the practice of Dzogchen Sem-de.

In the Nyingma tantric ngöndro, Guru yoga - self-arising as yidam/embodying the qualities of the enlightened being - is commonly the fourth and final practice, and it is the practice of tantra itself.

After these are accomplished AND have had their effect, the student can proceeds to other teachings.

I believe that’s usually the case for students of tantric ngöndro.

For Aro apprentices it depends very much on how much time you’ve got and what practices attract you. It’s something you discuss with your lamas. Silent sitting is the core practice suggested for everyone, but alongside that it’s varied.

What do you mean by saying Aro is these traditions "in drag"? You do MORE prostration,

No, less. The Aro Lamas ask us not to do that with them. The only occasion where we systematically practice prostration is in empowerment. Each person does three prostrations on entering the room at the beginning of the empowerment.

Longer Mantras?

Mantras are however long they are. You can have short ones (eg. Red Tara, 6 syllables) or long ones (eg. Dorje Phurba, 24 syllables). Mantras don’t change much across traditions. A completion of a mantra is 100,000 recitations x the number of syllables in the mantra. So, to complete the Dorje Phurba mantra, you recite it 2,400,000 times.

Rin’dzin

Hey Rin’dzin ( is that short for “Rin Tin Tin“?),

In my profession, the lay public often mistakenly pronounce “prostate” as “prostrate” [the male equivalent of the Skene’s gland in you women – least the Lady doth protest my changing the conversation to male organs]. But when my patients make the mistake, I usually don’t correct them (unlike many of my more highly educated colleagues). Let me tell you why:

“Prostate” comes from Latin meaning “to stand” (state) “before” (pro) [the bladder] . Closely related is “Prostrate”, Latin: “to stretch-out”(strate) “before” (pro) [something]. So an organ that stands or stretches out before the bladder all seems fine to me – the name is silly anyway. It is pathetically similar to “metaphysics” = [the book] before physics. Poor “metaphysics” didn’t get a proper name of its own but only a name in relation to another idea/book. Likewise, the prostate/prostrate is sadly only known in relationship to the bladder – as if it has no existence of its own.

And so: “Protestation” would come from the Latin “to witness in front of” –> gee, maybe for the same reason I let patients say “prostrate” we could let “protestation” be a substitute for “prostration” since the later means to stretch out before and the former to witness or testify before. Hmmm, at least protestation carries a bit of interesting content.

Thus I would like to put in an application to the word-police that “protestation” now be allowed as a synonym (or is that cinnamon?) for “prostration” – especially if it aids you in a speedier enlightenment.
:-)

Now, on a serious note: the details you shared were very, very helpful in clearing up some of my missing knowledge – thank you kindly Rin-Tin-Tin !
– Sabio (Latin: “very little wisdom”)

PS - I don’t think I made any typos, but I have to get the kids, make breakfast for them and take them to school – so no time to spell check – pls forgive :-)

is that short for "Rin Tin Tin"?

Funny you should mention it…it’s not an easy name to remember and when people forget, I suggest they remind themselves by thinking of Rin Tin Tin - I hadn’t read the wiki article though, and enjoyed it.

In my profession, the lay public often mistakenly pronounce "prostate" as "prostrate" etc.

That was a very funny reply.

Thus I would like to put in an application to the word-police that "protestation" now be allowed as a synonym (or is that cinnamon?) for "prostration"

Excellent idea. We could start prostrating if they don’t allow the cinnamon.

In consensio
Recalcitrant Wolf

Huge chuckling smile !!! Thank you – that was fun.
If you have time, a serious question (if you can tell, I enjoy the freedom of jumping between serious and frivolous):
(1) In the USA , how many Dzogchen-centered Buddhist/Bön groups are there – or what are the main ones? I have heard of Norbu’s group and Lama Surya Das’ group.

(2) What are the major Tantric Buddhist groups in the USA that have students doing all those prostrations, mandalas and such as preliminaries?

Thank you,
amicitia,
Sabio

Hi Sabio,

I don’t know.

I’ve only recently started spending time in the USA and I’m not yet familiar with the Tibetan Buddhist scene there. I’m just beginning to appreciate differences between the UK and USA regarding which groups are most influential. Popular Buddhist groups in the UK are Friends of the Western Buddhist Order, New Kadampa Tradition, SN Goenka’s vipassana. On the whole, practitioners of Tibetan tantra are a minority, and I believe that’s so in the USA too.

Sorry this doesn’t answer your questions.

Rin’dzin

Dear Chappy & Rin,
Fantastic feedback. Very helpful. You guys are fantastic. Thank you kindly!
– Sabio

Additional note: These comments remind me of a fun Tibetan proverb I just discovered (see my post):