Comments on “A non-statement ain't-framework”

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liked it but found ending problematic

Paul 2023-07-15

Quick comment: I liked this up until the ending which felt a bit “magical”. I feel like it might add unnecessary confusion.

For context: I’ve been practising dzogchen for 5 years and come from a similar background to you.

The magic is jarring

David Chapman 2023-07-15

Thanks for the feedback!

That ending is potentially misleading, and I went back and forth about whether to include it. The reasons I did include it may help understand the whole thing…

The overall point the teacher makes within the story is “take apparent statements about Dzogchen as inexplicit instructions about what to look for where, instead.”

The story is a fiction, written by me. The overall point of my presenting the story itself is also “take apparent statements about Dzogchen as inexplicit instructions instead.”

Popping out of the frame story, this inexplicit meta-instruction also applies to the story.

A straightforward misreading of the story, ignoring that, is “you can’t get Dzogchen without magic provided by a Special Teacher Person.”

Reading it as “what to look for where,” the instruction is: be on the lookout for moments that are relevantly similar to what the student experienced at that point in the story. If something bizarre happens and you can’t find your mind… you have an opportunity.

Such a moment potentially might occur for some readers as they read that part of the story—because it takes a sudden left turn…

And such a moment might occur for some readers right now, as pieces fall into place.

Thanks for the clarification

Paul 2023-07-15

Ok, I think I see what you’re going for now. I still feel aversion towards this approach but that’s just me :)

Thank you

vgm 2023-07-16

I enjoyed this and thought it was laugh-out-loud funny. The second student’s description of why they’re interested in Dzogchen (vs tantra) helped me clarify my own interests.

I hope you continue to write dialogue, as it conveys (to me) some texture that seems otherwise hard to convey.

“If something bizarre happens and you can’t find your mind… you have an opportunity.”

What can one do when this opportunity happens? I recognized something that might be similar to it this morning.

Also:
- Why does the teacher say “Excellent! So now vee may perhaps to begin. Yes?” Is his mother Swedish, and does it come out when he’s feeling jaunty?
- Is “all-pervasive, unchanging, beneficent, luminous, impersonal space” a description of rigpa in terms of the elements? If so, are these terms which indicate what happens when form and emptiness are perceived as non-dual?

Chöd

SusanC 2023-07-16

I think I’ll stick with summoning demons, at least I understand how that is supposed to work..

Texture

David Chapman 2023-07-16

What can one do when this opportunity happens?

The answer may change as it becomes more familiar. At first, all that is possible may be just noticing it, because it lasts only a moment or two. With more familiarity, there is a felt sense of “oh, this again, nice!” (but not in words). If the moment extends, you can rest in it, and maybe exert a slight amount of effort to resist the temptation to snap back into ordinariness. You can reach around and feel what it is like; its texture. You can act from it.

Why does the teacher say “Excellent! So now vee may perhaps to begin. Yes?”

There are many Easter eggs hidden in the text. Some are sign-posted; some (like this) are not.

It’s a quote from Portnoy’s Complaint. It’s a bit of a spoiler for that whole book, so I won’t explain it. I haven’t read the book in a million years, but I remember it as good. There's an analogy between the situation in which that question is asked in Portnoy and the situation here.

Is his mother Swedish, and does it come out when he’s feeling jaunty?

The teacher is female (the text refers to her as “she” a few times). There’s a couple of Easter eggs in there that explain who she is.

Is “all-pervasive, unchanging, beneficent, luminous, impersonal space” a description of rigpa in terms of the elements?

Well spotted, yes.

If so, are these terms which indicate what happens when form and emptiness are perceived as non-dual?

Yes, although this is biased on the side of emptiness. I’m not sure why it came out that way. It’s (fictionally) from an introductory lecture, where emphasizing the emptiness qualities might be helpful (since emptiness is less familiar than form).

Demons and Dzogchen

David Chapman 2023-07-16

I think I’ll stick with summoning demons, at least I understand how that is supposed to work.

Yup. Traditionally tantra was a functional prerequisite for Dzogchen. It’s difficult to approach Dzogchen directly, because it doesn’t make any sense (until it does). Tantric practice is one way to find the sense that Dzogchen makes.

In chöd you let go of identification with your body, which synergizes with letting go of mental stuff, and then you find that you are Tröma, whose mindness is all-pervasive, unchanging, beneficent, luminous, impersonal space (albeit with an excitingly, enjoyably bloodthirsty flavor), and thereby you are doing Dzogchen.

Related?

Simon Grant 2023-07-18

https://psyche.co/ideas/what-happens-to-the-brain-during-consciousness-ending-meditation

Just curious, from a naive and pretty ignorant perspective....

Related?

David Chapman 2023-07-18

Not seeing a connection…

Related?

Simon Grant 2023-07-19

I guess I was starting from the “difficult to describe” aspect. Now, of course, not everything that is difficult to describe is similar purely in virtue of it being difficult to describe. However, I felt a kind of connection, also felt alongside the Christian “apophatic” tradition. In my understanding of that tradition, one does not try to say what God is, but rather points, by saying what God is not. Or something…

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