Comments on “A Dzogchen-shaped hole in the culture”
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This whole Approaching Aro
This whole Approaching Aro -site has been a joy to read, but this page was simply the best.
If your projected book is to be (in style or content matter) anything similar, please do finish it.
Cheers,
Harri
Hear! Hear!
I second Harri’s motion! Your writing not only answers questions that I have as someone approaching the Aro tradition specifically and Buddhism generally– it helps me identify questions I hadn’t known I have; and it encourages me to see that I have the means to work out answers for myself. This may be the most valuable function that your good example and clear writing performs for me.
Citation of Keynes
Dear David,
a friend of mine (she is an economist) has read your article and was slightly disturbed by the fact that you seem to have shortened the citation of John Maynard Keynes. According to her the original citation was
“The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong …(etc)
I agree with my friend that shortening the original citation somewhat changes the implications of what Keynes had in mind. On the other hand I fully appreciate how you put the citation into your own context. However, for the sake of good citation practice, it would perhaps be reasonable to address the fact that the citation has been slightly adapted.
Thanks for the otherwise great article,
Florian
Out of context
Dear Florian,
Quite right – my mistake – I had the quote third-hand.
I’ve adjusted it accordingly, although clearly I’m still using Keynes’ words to make quite a different point than he had in mind. I hope he would forgive me for that.
Thanks for the correction,
David
sources of stealth dharma
Dear David,
“Perhaps we need a stealth Dharma effort” to “provide ways of thinking about life that do not assume an ultimate source of life-meaning.” I have rather unexpectedly found myself caught up in a rising tide of such an effort: it is Art, of many media, from many sources, and it is looking like going viral on social networking sites. And, as a person who came of age in the ‘60’s– at UC Berkeley, no less!– with its explosive, chaotic mass inter-influencing of art, politics, philosophy, education, spirituality, food, agriculture, music, dance, theater, and film, and emphasis on experience and involvement– I am finding ‘deja vu all over again.’
One of my personal culture-heroines is Emily Dickinson, who wrote, ‘Tell all the truth, but tell it slant..’ It seems to me that this allusive, indirect strategy is what makes art so effective at engendering an intensely awake appreciation of This! Phenomenal! World! that we can call meditation, or religion, or philosophy– or ‘nothing special’ or ‘as it is’– without the need of labels, authorities, or resort to anything more ‘ultimate’ than the kaleidoscopic moment itself. Each one in its turn.
My modern day, real-time Culture Hero, of course is Ngak’chang Rinpoche who is enacting this dazzling display of Tantra and the Art of FaceBook out in the wilds of cyberspace. It is the most outrageous, generous, electrifying act of dharma unbound I have ever witnessed. Your blog, with its cogent writing, diligent research, and pointedly appropriate– and amusing!– pop-culture references, plays a part in this grand ensemble, this disparate consort keeping perfect time.
‘Maybe I’m amazed,’
Your fellow traveller,
Kate Gowen
Please do continue writing...
I have found these web-pages extremely beneficial! Thank you for all your time and effort in writing them, I do appreciate it greatly! I think you are the man for the job and I am very grateful to you for sharing your wisdom!
With Gratitude,
Jivani Lisa Geren
Concerning your Buddhist solution to the crisis of meaning
Hello, David
My mind can’t wrap itself about the solution you proposed for the hole in our culture. I’m able to read quickly and perhaps I was skimming and missed your point, but far as I can tell your blessed alternative to consumerism and fundamentalism was nihilism/existentialism done with a smile, a wonderful ride down the rapids of life with peaceful interludes in quiet stretches, picking flowers of meaning from the passing bushes, and throwing them into the water as they faded and gathering more as needed. It reminded me of a scene from a Batman movie when the Joker fell seemingly to his death from a tall window. Heath Ledger perfectly played the Joker getting into the experience for the sake of the experience enjoying the sensation of the moment while hurtling to his death. He was attached to some sort of bungy cord thing to his surprise, so ended up being killed off later.
Sincerely,
A Hardened Theist
The alternative
Mmm… no, not that. It’s going to take some telling to get the whole story across; this was a hyper-abbreviated sketch that might communicate something to those who understand Dzogchen, and otherwise probably nothing much.
I have a whole site devoted to explaining this to a general audience; but I’ve only got about 5% of the content up, and it’s been back-burnered for months.
The next page on this site is another condensed sketch, in which I wax lyrical at the end. Nausea may ensue.
Yes and No
Hello, David,
It was actually the “Yes” post that sent me over the edge and birthed my rant. Still feels like existentialism with a what, why worry and a smile and what the hell let’s go with the flow, take the good with the bad, and the effin’ ineffable that contains all opposites, but I’ll be sure to be a good person while I’m at it and not let the freedom go to my head. But I happily acknowledge my true ignorance and lack of understanding of what you’re trying to say. As for the ” wax lyrical” I do that with the Trinity. I even get sent over into ecstasy listening to Hark the Herald Angels Sing and other Christmas carols. My Telepathic Zombie and His Two Sidekicks are very real to me.
Best regards
Lacking Motivation to Change
I went to the “5 percent done, on the back burner “ site and read some. I realized I won’t get beyond what you regard as a superficial facile understanding of Dzogchen practice’s supposed end state, unless I restructure my mind and perceptions by immersing myself in Buddhist teachings, practices, and hanging out with like-minded Buddhists as you have. I don’t have any motivation for doing so for I think and perceive that through Jesus I experience and have what is called the light of life or the gift of the Holy Spirit already or eternal life. Various terms in the Bible are used.
Well, one or both of us is deluded and not seeing things according to reality. Though according to the viewpoint you are arguing against, we are both in the same place, but we just don’t know it yet!
One nice thing that has come of our dialog and my reading is deciding what “tradition” I belong to in Christianity. It’s the Quaker/Baptist/Pentecostal stream. The original Quakers would be regarded now as a strain of Evangelicalism. Here is George Fox’s, founder of the Quakers, account of his conversion. I am no pacifist though.
“ But as I had forsaken the priests, so I left the separate preachers also, and those esteemed the most experienced people; for I saw there was none among them all that could speak to my condition. When all my hopes in them and in all men were gone, so that I had nothing outwardly to help me, nor could I tell what to do, then, oh, then, I heard a voice which said, “There is one, even Christ Jesus, that can speak to thy condition” and when I heard it, my heart did leap for joy.
’Then the Lord let me see why there was none upon the earth that could speak to my condition, namely, that I might give Him all the glory . . . . . . that Jesus Christ might have the pre-eminence who enlightens, and gives grace, and faith, and power . . .
Then the Lord gently led me along, and let me see His love, which was endless and eternal, surpassing all the knowledge that men have in the natural state, or can obtain from history or books . . .
I had not fellowship with any people, priests or professors, or any sort of separated people, but with Christ, who hath the key, and opened the door of Light and Life unto me.”
I also look to Saint Patrick of the 400’s, the Padmasambhava of Ireland. Unlike Padmsambhava we certainly have his words in a short autobiography. It is universally recognized by scholars as being written by Patrick. It is a fascinating account of the spiritual experience of a Christian in the closing days of early Christianity. He is a blend of “isms” now usually separate in Christianity today and often at odds. As a result various factions claim him as their own. He is sacramental, hierarchical, individualistic and independent, monastic, yet buried in the hurly burly of society, Bible minded evangelical, and charismatic/pentecostal. He recounts various supernatural events – none of which from my experiences and those of friends and family seem over the top. He even recounts an experience which looks like he was praying in tongues! – something which is an aspect of my own walk with God.
As a student of human spiritual life you may find his brief, only a few pages in length auto-biography fascinating. Here’s a link http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_patrick.htm
I keep thinking I’m not going to comment again and I get hooked in once more!
Sincerely yours,
Your friendly local Zombie Devotee
A Beautiful Thing I learned From Buddhism
Hello, David,
While there are traces of this concept in the New Testament, Buddhism expresses it better. This aphorism came to my mind today. ” You can be attentive to what you enjoy or you can enjoy your attentiveness” The ideal is both of course! I believe we are made to be led by pleasure and I strive for that to be what compells me, Pleasure always compells us whether we recognize it or not!
A dead horse perhaps beaten alive
I found the below on the Aro website. From it I can say I nailed in my own , admittedly mocking, words the what its’ supposed to be like in the dzogchen state. To me it seems shallow and vapid compared to walking with God in his creation, in the company of others, coupled with the hope and promise of that experience ever deepening and perfecting through eternity. Yes, Christianity can be mocked and made to seem absurd, but that can be done with any faith, philosophy, spirituality if the mocker is clever and insightful enough. Dzogchen is absurd also, but absurdity in itself isn’t proof of inaccuracy or falsity, it’s useful though to make one laugh and lighthearted! I see the absurdity of what I follow, it makes me smile, the strange, absurd joy that a man tacked on a piece of wood liberates me – to me it’s additional proof, like the strangeness of same parts of physics. I think you see and appreciate the absurdity in Buddhism.
“This endless non-dual reflection is the limitless dance of Vajrayana Buddhism. Our spiritual practice consists simply of learning to dance with the emptiness and form of phenomena. Vajrayana introduces the one taste of emptiness and form. We develop the ability to actively savour apparently polarised tension, rather than experiencing it in a victim rôle. This apparently polarised tension, after all, is merely created through ongoing attempts to attach to form whilst rejecting emptiness.
We need to observe the way in which we attempt to solidify emptiness. In so doing, we crush our freedom through attempting to impose form on situations where reality is in creative flux. Alternatively—in the disconcerting gaps between contrasting segments of life—we might sense a dimension of being that is independent of circumstances. It is interesting—on finding this space—to allow events to remain undefined a little longer than usual. Settling into uncertainty and feeling its texture – life can disclose itself as emptiness and form: beads on the thread of energy which comprise the nature of experience. We can simply flow with the multiplicity of definitions manifested by reality. We can swim in swirling torrents of form and relax in still pools of emptiness.
This requires that we allow polarities to coexist. We can deliberately entertain experiential and existential paradoxes. We can embrace our impulsiveness and caution, credulity and scepticism, craziness and absolute sanity. Unless we are prepared to feel the texture of these erratically alternating possibilities – the energy of being remains incomprehensible. If we delightedly embrace the possibility of expanding into the fierce totality of each moment—as it arrives—we can know what it is to be alive.”
Herbert V Günther
Hello David,
You mention Herbert V Gunther with regards to the relevance of non-duality. Would you recommend reading H.V.Gunther, and if so, where is a good place to start on this topic? I’ve only read as far as ‘Dawn of Tantra’ with Chogyam Trungpa.
Appreciated (again)
Kind regards,
Jack
Reading on non-duality
Hello Jack,
That’s funny… I don’t remember recommending Guenther, and couldn’t find it when searching the page. So I checked Google to see if it was somewhere else on the site, and Google can’t locate it either! Mysterious.
I think I would suggest reading Namkhai Norbu’s books, rather than Guenther’s. They are more readable, and closer to the source. Guenther is interesting in relating Dzogchen to Heidegger, but is probably hard to follow unless you already know Heidegger and Dzogchen pretty well (preferably in German and Tibetan, because Guenther’s translation of technical terms are idiosyncratic).
David
David, thanks for your reply.
David, thanks for your reply.
The Günther link was less recommendation than a hyperlink for the words ‘Western philosophers’ in the following (from a ‘Dzogchen shaped hole’), “Both Japanese Buddhist and Western philosophers have recognized the relevance of non duality…”.
I’ll go pick up some Namkhai Norbu!
Appreciated.
Books
Hey, David! What about this book you mention on the first comment here? Is it ready to be released??
You should seriously consider qualifying as an Aro Lama just to break the rules thereafter and put your ideas of Modern Tantra into practice.
This Veeresh guy in Holland and his Humaniversity present a few practices and courses that I found interest in this line of Modern Tantra.
How about transforming your websites into a book and expanding some themes? I have not even a tenth of your culture and knowledge, but I could help in some way as to launch those books and translating verything you write into Portuguese and Spanish.
Anyways, I ask deeply that you consider going forward in developing your ideas more practically!
Thanks a lot for all this effort of yours!!!
Meaningness
The book is Meaningness. Unfortunately it is extremely far from complete, partly because I don’t get much time to write, and partly because it is absurdly ambitious. However, the parts that are available on the web may have some value anyway.
There is zero chance that I will ever teach Vajrayana. Even if I could, which I can’t, I don’t want to.
One-Zero-Eight
Work in progress… I see… Hey, the best things in life, the very noble ones, the most heroic ones, are absurdly ambitious… That’s why they are in the Land of Impossible, where only the Astonishing Ones live!
Zero chance… I see… You ARE ALREADY teaching it! ahahaha
You say you cannot do it because you’re not authorized or what? Sorry to be such a pain in your arse, but hey, everyone here can see that you really WANT to teach. Don’t try to hide from such a pulse with excuses.
Maybe not the Vajrayana exactly as you have learned, but the one you’re talking about, one that resounds with people from today world and can help uncountable beings.
Why talk about ACTION and not do it? You demonstrate a Tertön’s ability, man! Express it fully, please!!!
There are lots of people like me that shall benefit from the bread you’ve been baking here, but moistened by the (com)passionate butter of your full action…
Anyways, I feel so lucky to have met your websites, because they put in a better perspective what even the most modernist Lamas I know are not able to do it, while not having the pedantic academic imposture of Western scholars.
It inspires me to follow such track, but I fear I’m not as intelligent as it is required.
Any chance that at least we can think of translating your work in the near future?
What do you think about Osho’s (Rajneesh) opus, especially the Active Meditations??? He’s not simply Hindu and resembles Trungpa Rinpoche in his polemic behavior.
Sufis like Idries Shah also engage in using day-to-day activities to go beyond duality. There’s a Sufi saying that: “None attains Reality until a thousand honest people have called him an infidel”.
;D :P
Eternalism absolutely false?
Hey there,
I see that you’ve mentioned eternalism is false, but I don’t understand how you could be absolutely sure about that. Which chapter in your book and/or external resource would be best for understanding this idea? I’ve gone back and forth on this idea, but I thought there was no way to be absolutely sure.
Thank you!
Now what?
This page, and to some extent this whole section, have a different flavor from the rest of the site. They are not obviously about Aro, so I am not sure they belong here at all. I’d like to say a little about my thinking here.
In the “about” page for the site, which I wrote a year and half ago, I issued various promises. The site was supposed to help anyone interested in Tibetan Buddhism find out whether Aro, the Nyingma tradition, or Vajrayana overall, was a good fit for them. I am afraid I have done much less of that than I promised. My outline calls for many pages, still unwritten, on topics like choosing a teacher, learning about different traditions, and evaluating one’s relationship with an organization. Logically these are a base for the rest. Unfortunately, they are just plain difficult.
Also, sorting out various misconceptions about Aro took far more work than I expected. Locating relevant facts was time-consuming.
I found actually that most of the misconceptions were not about Aro at all, but about points of Buddhist doctrine. I needed to first learn, and then explain, accurate information about technical aspects of Buddhism that are not widely understood. The section on terma is an example. As background, I wrote many pages with explanations of fairly basic points of Dharma, when I couldn’t find clear explanations on the web.
I have been surprised, and touched, by emails I have received from readers who say that they found those helpful in their own right. That, plus my unfulfilled promise, makes me feel some queasy responsibility to write more pages for relative beginners. I say “queasy” because I’m not formally qualified to do this; it is not clear that I’m the man for the job, or that it is the job for me. On the other hand, I seem to have some sort of knack for writing about Buddhism. I’d like to put that to the best use possible.
Five years ago, I started writing a book related to this page. The book is about the ways that nihilism and eternalism – denials of the non-duality of form and emptiness – manifest in everyday life. That is a constant theme in the Aro teachings, but the Aro Lamas have not as yet written much about it explicitly. The book suggests ways that problems of meaning can be resolved by accepting both emptiness and form in life issues. Unlike this page, it presents that as “stealth Dharma“, i.e. with little explicit reference to Buddhism. It also draws extensively on Western philosophy, but rarely mentions that either.
The book is about one-third written, and I am uncertain whether to continue. I am extravagantly unqualified to write such a thing, and unsure whether it would be useful even if written by someone fully qualified. I am not too bothered by uncertainty, however. It may be an interesting job to fail at. So, I have included this page here as a potential bridge to that work. I have ended up jamming so much in that I am afraid the page may be incomprehensible, or too long for anyone to want to read. But to make it clear would take, well, the book.