Beyond emptiness: Zen, Tantra, and Dzogchen

ox herding picture #8: emptiness
number eight: emptiness

Buddhist Tantra begins where Sutrayana ends: at emptiness. Tantra concerns the realms beyond emptiness, about which mainstream Buddhism (Sutrayana) has nothing to say.

Few Buddhist systems go beyond emptiness. This post is a humorous sketch of the differences among three: Zen, Tantra, and Dzogchen. (Mahamudra is another, which I won’t discuss.) I can’t write seriously, because my practice of Tantra and Dzogchen is pathetic, and I haven’t practiced Zen at all. The post is long, but I hope you will find it entertaining, and that it conveys something of the attitudes of the three approaches.

Vehicles fast and slow

It is said… that Hinayana is like a bicycle. It is slow, and carries only one person, but it’s cheap, simple, and gets you there in the end. Mahayana is a bus: when you drive the vehicle, you bring many people with you. Tantrayana is a sports car: it is fast, dangerous, and not for most people. Dzogchen is a teleportation booth: it’s instantaneous, but somewhat hypothetical.

This isn’t my analogy. It’s significantly misleading, in several ways.

It is said… that, when practicing Zen, first there is a mountain; then there is no mountain; then there is a mountain.

That isn’t my analogy. I’ll start with no mountain. Let’s say you live in a flat place—the Ganges plain of northern India perhaps—and you have never seen even a hill.

The path to emptiness, and what you find there

ox herding picture #2: finding the track
number two: finding the track

You hear rumors of a miraculous something, called “emptiness,” far off. Intrigued, you attend lectures with learned men, who totally fail to explain it in a way anyone can understand. Also, they disagree violently with each other about what “emptiness” is. Still, they all seem to think it’s wonderful.

Eventually, you decide that you’ll have to go see it for yourself. You get a copy of The Rough Guide To Emptiness, which explains how to get there, and you set off. (Not before your family says “Isn’t that an awfully long way to go?” and “I can see why you’d meditate a little, but don’t you think this is overdoing it?”)

It’s a long hard slog—several months, perhaps several years. Your knees and back hurt. Still, it’s a broad dirt track, and it’s well marked, and there’s plenty of footprints on the way. And it’s dead flat, of course, like everywhere you’ve ever been.

Finally, you come around a corner, and there is a huge billboard sign: !!! EMPTINESS Here & Now !!!… and, omigod, there it is!

You stand on the bank of emptiness and gape. It’s incomprehensibly vast, a featureless expanse of water stretching out seemingly to infinity. Wow! Wow. Wow. Wow.

You are jolted out of your contemplation by voices. Returning to normal perception, you realize that you arrived beside a parking lot, where a bus has just disgorged a load of Japanese tourists. They are talking excitedly in Japanese (presumably) and taking iPhone photos of themselves with emptiness in the background.

Looking around, you see other buses. A crowd of fat Americans with Hawaiian shirts and yappy little dogs is milling around one.

There’s also a group of athletic twenty-somethings leaning on their bicycles and showing off their leg muscles.

At the back of the parking lot, there’s a Dharma Burger® stand. A queue of Consensus Buddhists are waiting in line there, pretending not to check out the cyclists.


This is joking about “emptiness tourism.” There are people who decide they want to get sotapatti or kensho, and they do a three month retreat, and they see emptiness, and it’s really cool, and then they tick it off and move on to something more interesting. (I hear this is particularly common in Japan.) A few declare that they are now “enlightened,” and set up tour agencies, or publish maps.

The cyclists represent a recent athletic, goal-oriented trend in American Buddhism, led for instance by Daniel Ingram and Kenneth Folk. They encourage rapid personal progress on a path based in Hinayana (hence bicycles—but their methods probably actually go beyond emptiness).

“Dharma Burgers” are superficial pop-culture references to Buddhism.

Despite my gentle satire, there is nothing wrong with any of these. Like the Grand Canyon, it’s absolutely worth seeing emptiness once, even if you never come back. There is huge value in the hardcore approach to Buddhism (and it’s a major part of the system I practice in). I often enjoy Buddhist references in pop culture, even when they are commercialized and distorted.

Crossing the river

And so, you walk away from the crowd, down the bank, and stick a toe in emptiness. It’s cool to the touch. You stare for a long time out across emptiness. You lose track of time. Minutes pass, or years.

There’s something odd. At first you thought you saw a line of clouds on the horizon—but isn’t there a very thin dark line below them? Could it be that there is something there, beyond emptiness?

The word “mountains” comes into your mind, from a dream, or a forgotten fairy story.

You walk along the bank, away from the parking lot. The babble of voices fades. Twilight falls, and you come upon an old and extraordinarily ugly woman, sitting cross-legged on the bank and grinning maniacally. You approach with caution. She turns abruptly and points out into emptiness. There an enormous fish, striped yellow, white, red, green, and blue, leaps from the surface—and hangs, for an instant only, in the air. You open your mouth to speak, and suddenly find yourself back in the parking lot, in broad daylight, surrounded by tourists.

You walk the same way along the bank. Twilight falls, and you come again upon the extraordinarily ugly woman, still grinning maniacally. Again she points, and the fish jumps. “What—” you begin, and find yourself back in the parking lot.

Perhaps this happens three times, or a million times.

Then, one time, you simply sit beside her on the bank and look at the fish. You are the fish, after all. Also the river, and the bank.

And so you are sitting on the other side of the river. From the bank you had called “far,” it does not seem wide; no more than a brook. You grin maniacally across at the extraordinarily ugly woman, who nods vigorously. Then you stand up, turn around, and start into the mountains.


If you want to understand this metaphor, you may have to read the “beyond emptiness” and “vivid portal” chapters in Roaring Silence. It is an allegory of pointing-out instructions


ox-herding picture #9: reaching the source
number nine: reaching the source

Zen—“a special transmission outside the sutras”—goes beyond Sutrayana, and therefore beyond emptiness. Mostly, though, it takes you to emptiness. It doesn’t have much to say about what lies beyond, or what to do when you get there. “Marvelous! Ineffable!” is not hugely helpful advice. The rest is poetry and riddles. Or, at any rate, that’s my impression, having never practiced it and read only a couple dozen popular books. Still…

“First there is a mountain”—as ordinarily perceived. “Then there is no mountain”: it dissolves into emptiness. (This is where Sutrayana stops.) Zen continues: “and then there is a mountain.” It is the same mountain, and not the same, because its vivid appearance remains empty. (This is where Tantrayana begins, as the mountain returns.)

The eighth Ox-Herding Picture is blank; an empty circle. You have reached the end goal of Sutrayana; and some versions of the Pictures end here too.

But others continue. Their ninth picture is of a lovely landscape. This is the territory beyond emptiness.

The tenth picture is “back to the marketplace”: fully enlightened, you return to civilization. That’s true in Tantra and Dzogchen also.

But this page is mostly about number nine. The picture is nice—there’s a river, a willow, poppies blooming, mountains in the background. And so?

Zen seems not to have much to say. Some teachers explicitly reject the ninth and tenth pictures, saying you cannot go beyond emptiness.

The classic commentary by Kakuan Shien:

Too many steps have been taken returning to the the source; you see that you have expended efforts in vain. Better to have been blind and deaf from the beginning! A hermit dwelling in your true abode, unconcerned with what’s outside, the river flows tranquilly on and the flowers are red.

From point of view of Tantra or Dzogchen, this is terrible advice. Tantra and Dzogchen are about perception, exploration, and appreciation. Complacent Kakuan believes that having crossed over emptiness you’ve finished your work and can hang around being holy; but you’ve barely begun.

Undoubtedly some Zen masters have gone far beyond emptiness, and returned to teach; but they seem to have written no systematic guides to what they found. Perhaps that’s restricted to oral transmission in koan study; I don’t know. (Maybe you do? Please leave a comment below!)


You leave the willow tree by the river-bank and struggle up a steep rocky slope. The butterflies are distracting, you are out of breath, and you could easily twist an ankle. Still, it’s entrancingly beautiful, and you are drawn on by glimpses of snow-covered peaks ahead.

Soon you come upon a paved highway. Looking both ways, you see that it snakes its way on up through the foothills.

Parked by the side of the road is a candy-apple red convertible, painted with flames in the Tibetan style. An elegantly-dressed gentleman steps out of the driver’s seat.

“You cannot hope to travel beyond emptiness without a vehicle, or without a map,” he says, in a somewhat disdainful tone.

“Oh,” you say.

“I suppose that, since you have made it this far, I might consider lending you my vehicle,” he says. “And I do have a map.”

“That would be extremely kind,” you say, “but I have never been in a car, and have no idea how to drive.”

“I’ll just give you the transmission,” he says, “and the manual is in the glovebox. Of course, there is the slight matter of the customary donation…”

That business concluded, the gentleman chants some gibberish, makes some mystic passes, and vanishes in a puff of smoke.

You sit for a while in the driver’s seat, reading the manual out loud. It seems quite useless. It’s written partly in some foreign tongue, and the bits that are supposed to be in English have sentences so contorted they might as well be Sanskrit. There are pictures and even diagrams, but they are of gods with too many heads and peculiar palaces, which doesn’t seem helpful.

Eventually you put the manual away and start randomly pushing buttons and levers. With one combination, the car roars to life and lurches across the road before stalling out, narrowly missing going off the edge. When your heart and breath return to normal, you try again, and manage to drive a couple of hundred feet, even making it around a curve, having figured out the steering wheel.

You consult the map. At the center is a golden palace marked “Enlightenment” in extra-large letters. The map seems to think that’s the place to go, so you take a deep breath, start the car, and head off.

The car seems only to go very fast, and it takes enormous concentration to keep it on the road. At times you are faintly aware that lush valleys and towering forests and remarkable rock formations are whooshing past, but your eyes are glued to the highway and the controls.

The clutch is finicky and, try as you will, you cannot avoid clashing the gears. Each time, there is an awful grinding noise and the car jerks terribly. Eventually, there is a final, worst gear-stripping noise; the car stalls, and you can’t restart it.

You consult the manual. Again it is no help.

There is a clap of thunder, and the slick gentleman appears. “Had a little trouble on your way to Enlightenment, then?” he asks. “What you need is a new transmission. That first one I gave you was kid stuff, anyway. There’s no way it would have gotten you all the way to Enlightenment. Of course, it might plant a seed for accomplishment in some future life… But now I can give you an extra-special and extremely secret and powerful transmission. Of course, such an extraordinary transmission requires a substantial customary donation…”

That business concluded, he disappears in a puff of smoke. You set off again, with the new extra-special transmission and an empty pocket. Soon you notice that the new transmission doesn’t seem to do anything different from the first one. Still, you are determined to reach Enlightenment, and resolve to shift gears extra carefully.

After driving for many years, you notice with a start that you are passing the same spot where you first found the car. And, worse, you realize you have passed it already many times before. You have, in fact, been driving in circles, and made no progress at all.

You stop and consult the map. You must have taking a wrong turn somewhere… But the map shows no junctions. The roads twist and turn, but each leads only to Enlightenment, where they all converge.

You begin driving again, gnashing your teeth now in annoyance with the car, the map, and the slimy bastard who sold them to you. Rehearsing in your mind the angry words you’ll say when you see him again, your attention wanders, and you head too fast into a curve. You slam on the brakes, the tires shriek, and the steering wheel spins uselessly as the car slides sideways. You close your eyes as you fly over the cliff edge, open them for an instant to see the world spinning, and black out with the crash at the bottom.


This is not how Tantra should work, of course. It’s a satire of how it often goes wrong in America in 2013. This is what we are up against, and why reinvention is urgent. Taught and practiced properly, Tantra actually is a fabulous ride.

But the story also illustrates some of the inherent limitations of Tantra as compared with Dzogchen. I’ll say more about that later in this post.

In case my metaphors are not clear:

A paved highway: Tantra has narrow, precisely-defined paths. Deviation from the road is considered fatal.

You cannot hope to travel beyond emptiness without a vehicle, or without a map: The vehicle is Vajrayana, which includes detailed maps of paths beyond emptiness.

I’ll just give you the transmission: Many lamas see this as their main, or only, religious job. “Transmission” and “empowerment” are ceremonies that supposedly enable you to engage in tantric practices. Often Westerners find them baffling and useless, because they contain no explanation for how to actually do the practice. (“Transmission” means quite different things in Tantra and Zen, by the way.)

Gibberish and mystical passes: These are the mantras and mudras of the ceremony.

Vanishes in a puff of smoke: Most lamas fly around the world constantly. They may visit a city for a day or two, give an introductory dharma talk, perform an empowerment, and disappear for six months or a year. You are lucky if you can get two minutes to talk with one personally.

Reading the manual out loud: Most “tantric practices” given to Westerners consist of reading manuals (“sadhanas”) out loud. This is mainly pointless unless you know how to actually do the practices the manual mentions (but does not explain).

Sentences so contorted they might as well be Sanskrit: books about Buddhist Tantra are mostly like that. Quite unnecessarily difficult.

Kid stuff vs. an extra-special, extremely secret and powerful transmission that doesn’t seem to do anything different: This is a bait-and-switch scam, pretty much. Westerners who “practice tantra” (i.e. read manuals out loud) for a few years often find that nothing much is happening. What has gone wrong? Well, that was only a beginner’s sadhana. If you show enough commitment (especially to fundraising and center-building), you can get a fancier one. This produces a never-ending cycle of hope and disappointment as you progress through supposedly ever-more-secret “practices,” which all amount to chanting interchangeable manuals. “Enlightenment” is the ever-receding carrot on the end of the string.

You have, in fact, been driving in circles, and made no progress at all: The test is whether Tantra has actually changed your life—or if you still find yourself doing the same stupid, mean things you did years ago.

Gnashing your teeth in annoyance, your attention wanders, and you head too fast into a curve: Hostility to your teacher is the “first root downfall” of Tantra, and the main way to screw it up. Often it leads to pride, and distraction from the narrow path, and going too fast in the wrong direction—and that actually can be disastrous.

You fly over the cliff edge and crash at the bottom: This is the traditional analogy for Tantra going wrong.


You regain consciousness hanging upside-down in the driver’s seat. Everything hurts, and you are too dazed to move.

There is a horrible tearing noise, and the car wobbles. You turn your head to see the extraordinarily ugly woman you met by the river. She rips the driver-side door off its hinges and tosses it aside. Then she unbuckles the seat belt and carries you a few paces from the car.

It explodes in a satisfyingly cinematic fashion. She snickers at it.

You sit with her and watch it burn.

“I was trying to get to Enlightenment,” you say. She snickers at that, too.

“What’s so funny?” you ask.

“You were born there,” she says.

“I… What? Um… should I go back, then?”

“You never left.”

“I… What? Has this all been a dream?” Your brain doesn’t seem to be working, and you feel like a child, unable to make sense of anything.

Like a dream, perhaps… But there is nowhere other than Enlightenment. Your home is Enlightenment, emptiness is Enlightenment, and you’ve been driving around Enlightenment in circles.”

“Oh… have my efforts been expended in vain, then?”

“Been reading that Kakuan fellow, have you? No, not in the least.”

“Because… because I have learned a lesson?”

“I’ve no idea… did you enjoy the effort?”

“No!” you say, thinking of the years of hard slog across flatland, and the years of driving nowhere.

She frowns.

“… but then… also yes,” you add. Seeing emptiness for the first time; the miraculous fish jumping; the butterflies and vistas as you walked up to the highway. Even the car salesman and the ugly woman herself were interesting at least.

“I wish I had taken more time to enjoy the scenery,” you say.

“Perhaps you did learn a lesson, then,” she says. “Not much chance for sight-seeing in one of those things,” she says, waving at the smoldering wreck.

“Are they useless, then?” you ask.

“No, not if you want to go somewhere specific in a big hurry,” she says. “And if your destination is on a road—the most interesting places aren’t. But even then, you need someone to teach you how to drive; someone who will sit beside you and explain the controls, and give directions, and watch you screw up, and tell you what to do instead.”

“Oh… can you teach me?”

“Me? No! I’m not in a hurry, and I don’t like roads.” She looks fierce, and you notice how sharp her teeth are.

“Oh… sorry… so how do you get around, then? He said that you cannot travel beyond emptiness without a vehicle, or without a map.”

“Mostly I walk. What was on his map?”

“Now that I think of it… nothing except roads. Plus Enlightenment at the center.”

“There you are, then. If you want to see roads, you can use a map… otherwise, I can suggest some directions to head that you may find interesting.”

“Like the palace of Enlightenment?”

“I suppose you could visit there if you really want to. Overrated, if you ask me. It is a silly place, with ham and jam and—”

“So where should I go?”

“That all depends on what you like! And what you happen to find along the way. I like collecting fungi. There are some remarkable species in the Northeast; some toadstools are so big you can live inside them.”

“Oh… so I can just wander off anywhere?”

“You can—but I wouldn’t advise it! There are places you shouldn’t go until you really know what you are doing. Oblivion Gates are no picnic. Besides that, you need equipment, and training.”

“Like what?”

“Depends where you are going and what you want to do there. For the central North, you’d want warm clothes and perhaps skis. Those take some lessons and practice. It’s rocky; you could take a pickaxe if you plan to mine the gems and precious metal ores there. The Southeast is a swamp: disease-infested, but full of interesting botanical ingredients. If you head that way, I can give you a bag of potions, and show you how to use a calcinator and alembic.”

“I guess I still don’t understand. There’s no place I’m supposed to go, but I’m not supposed to just wander around, so I’m supposed to find work here? What for?”

She sighs. “There is no supposed to, because there’s no one to tell you what to do. I’m not your goddamn mother. But since you are asking… Do you see the village down there?”

She points. The mountainside you are sitting on forms one wall of a broad river-valley. At its mouth, in the distance, you can see a rocky ocean harbor, with a cluster of brightly-painted houses. Jetties run out into the bay, with boats tied to some. You can just make out tiny people, wearing white skirts.

“They are bards—fisher-folk on the Sea of Stories. They catch narrative fragments and stew them into songs and novels and YouTube videos. Then they take them back to flatland to inspire those who will never come as far even as emptiness.

“There’s endless things to do here… I find poisonous plants, extract the active ingredients, and turn them into medicines.

“So… you may want to have a good look around the territory first, admire the landscape, become familiar with some regions. And then you’ll probably find that you want to make beautiful or useful things.”


Dzogchen and Zen both say you are always already enlightened, so there is nothing you need to do to become enlightened—except notice it, perhaps. But Zen advises that there is then nothing more to do. Dzogchen is all about useful and enjoyable things you can do once you have noticed. A Zen master may be described as an aimless wanderer; a Dzogchenpa has places to go and things to do. In terms of spaciousness and passion, Zen seems, from a Dzogchen point of view, to underemphasize passion relative to space. Presumably this is because Zen is is rooted in Sutrayana, whereas Dzogchen grows out of Tantra.

Tantra has a definite goal, and a specific route to get there. From a Dzogchen point of view, it overemphasizes passion relative to space. Dzogchen is action-oriented but open-ended (ideally, balancing the two). A Dzogchenpa may have plans, but also acts spontaneously in response to opportunities as they arise.

Video games provide a useful metaphor. Some games take the player through a fixed path or sequence of experiences, requiring specific tasks at each stage. These are analogous to Tantra. Others offer an open landscape for the player to explore freely, and a vast variety of possible activities, like Dzogchen. The Elder Scrolls games are my favorite example, and I’ve alluded to them in various parts of this story. I suspect that which type of game you prefer may predict whether Tantra or Dzogchen will be the more attractive path for you.

You never left; there is nowhere other than Enlightenment: The allegory speaks about the “realm beyond emptiness,” but that is nothing other than our everyday world—when you relate to it properly. There is no separate, spiritual existence that is any better than this one. Enlightenment means perceiving everything as miraculous and sacred, and acting accordingly.

I can suggest some directions to head: a teacher of Tantra shows you the road to Enlightenment. (Whatever that is supposed to be. It’s only a model.) A Dzogchen teacher has explored enough of the territory beyond emptiness to point out major regions and landmarks and to explain what’s to be done in those places. To make my metaphor a little more explicit, by “regions” I mean typical patterns that energy takes as it is unclogged by unifying spaciousness with passion.

My posts “On the path” and “Off the path” are relevant.

You need someone to teach you how to drive: You can’t learn Zen, Tantra, or Dzogchen from a book. It’s not because they’re secret, it’s because they are ways of being, not information. Ways of being are non-conceptual know-how that can only be transmitted by apprenticeship. You can’t learn to drive from a book, either. Driving is a mode of attention and bodily engagement, not a procedure.

You need equipment, and training: A Dzogchen teacher supplies you with a backpack full of specific methods, useful concepts, general advice, and funny stories that you realize only years later also explain something important about non-dual experience. Then it is up to you to head out into the wilderness, and to use what you’ve been given. What she puts in your backpack depends on where you want to go and what you want to do there. There are far more practices than any one person can use, and they have quite different purposes.

There are places you shouldn’t go until you really know what you are doing: the territory beyond emptiness is not safe. A teacher can warn you of particular dangers and suggest ways of dealing with them if they arise, but ultimately it’s up to you to stay sane and act responsibly.

Mine the gems: A traditional metaphor for new Buddhist teachings. Dharma is constantly re-formed by those who explore the non-duality of emptiness and form, and bring back new expressions of its essential principles. The bards are another way of putting the same point: non-duality is a fount of creative energy. (Their white skirts signify that they are ngakpas and ngakmas.)

Turn poisonous plants into medicines: This is a triple metaphor. Tantra is often described as the alchemical method of turning poisons (the kleshas, or negative emotions) into medicines (the non-dual wisdoms). I’m also alluding to the practice of alchemy in the Elder Scrolls games; a calcinator and alembic are essential equipment there. Finally, I’m alluding to my own experience working in pharmaceutical research.

ox herding picture #10: return to the marketplace
number ten: return to the marketplace

You’ll probably find that you want to make beautiful or useful things: Tantra and Dzogchen value action in the world, as the manifestation of compassion. The compassionate activity of a Sutric Bodhisattva is limited to pointing the way out of the world, into nirvana.

Tantra and Dzogchen are about appreciating the glory and horror of the world as it is. That appreciation automatically leads to artistic and practical expression. I wrote about this in “Mastery”:

Westerners often have the idea that “spirituality” is the opposite of “worldly concerns.” They are surprised, baffled, and even annoyed when they see how much energy Tibetan teachers put into creating useful or beautiful things. “High lamas” turn out to be accomplished experts in unlikely disciplines like carpentry, target shooting, or film-making.

Tantra is anti-spiritual, though. It is mainly about “worldly concerns,” so this is no contradiction.

In the tenth, last Ox-Herding Picture, our hero offers, in a basket, something wonder-full he has brought back from the territory beyond emptiness.


Author: David Chapman

Author of the book Meaningness and several Buddhist sites.

60 thoughts on “Beyond emptiness: Zen, Tantra, and Dzogchen”

  1. I read this article from start to finish while sipping on a cup of coffee with some freshly ground cinnamon. At the end, I found myself wanting more of both!

    I love that you used the sports car analogy. I’ve been using it to describe Tantra for quite some time now, and I have to wonder if it came from you. I’ve used the analogy to describe some of the more unpleasant things I’ve seen developing in some of Bikram Choudhury’s students (I studied with him several years ago). I always said it was like he put his students into a fast car with virtually no training, tied a weight to the gas pedal, and then jumped out just before the car crashed. I’m of the opinion (some people disagree) that the teacher has to be in the passenger seat whether the ride is nice, rough, or at worst, when there’s a 12-car pileup.

    Speaking of collisions, is there any use for them? The fellow in the story seems to have not only recovered, but discovered something incredibly useful. I understand that this was your way of describing Tantra going wrong, but what about other types of collisions? I might be mistaken, but I thought that collisions were inevitable (maybe even engineered) in Tantra and Dzogchen. Maybe I’ve misunderstood your analogy. If the collision was in some part a reference to vow breakage, maybe that’s not so useful.

    Thanks for another thought-provoking piece!

  2. Shane — Thank you! It was a lot of fun to write.

    Dharmadhatu — Glad you liked it! I think I heard the sports car analogy as “folk wisdom” twenty years ago. It’s not mine originally.

    Yes, some teachers do engineer collisions. Maybe that’s related to “taking it way too far, until it breaks” (as I wrote here). And life provides collisions regardless! They do provide “learning opportunities” even if we wish they didn’t.

    But, yeah, the analogy of the crash in this fable was to a conclusive failure on the tantric path. It’s probably not frequently feasible then to switch to Dzogchen, so the story shouldn’t be taken too seriously.

  3. Hey the Vitali made a guest appearance. Maybe someday you’ll go back to doing something truly useful, like writing trashy vampire fiction! :P

    You also, in alluding to alchemy in Skyrim, alluded to actually alchemy, at least in the sense of the teaching of non-dual reality. I also found it personally relevant in your comparison of Theme-park games and sand-box games. Having played video games since the Atari 2600, I’ve often found them to provide unique insights into questions like, “so what do I do now?”, that those who engage themselves in ostensibly more “worthwhile” pursuits seem to have trouble with. On the other hand those people never had to deal with an LJN game, so there are benefits in everything I guess.

  4. Hokai Sobol and Chagmé have both pointed out that Mahamudra also goes beyond emptiness, so the original version of the second paragraph of this post was inaccurate. I have revised it accordingly. Thanks to both of them for catching the mistake!

    I don’t know much about Mahamudra, so I can’t compare it with the others. Generally it is said to be quite similar to Dzogchen, but there are also differences, and I don’t know the details.

  5. Write about it once you have achieved something, then the situation will be clearer. The true time to write May never come.

  6. You should have looked through :-) and obviously there is no “beyond emptiness”. Those ten oxherding pictures are wonderful, but they hide also what is obvious and what could be seen, if your eye is open. So – as Dôgen said, when he returned – all I brought are empty hands. And that is the message of the tenth picture – the basket is empty.

  7. I found this great quote in Regginald Ray’s excellent Secret of the Vajra World: The Tantric Buddhism of Tibet, and thought it would be nice to add here. [I’m not posting this as a reply to Alina specifically; I didn’t think her last comment needed one.]

    The Vajrayana continues the Hinayana interest in laying bare the actual, tangible reality of our experience as human beings. But it has passed through the Mahayana fire and assumes a present reality that is empty—that is, beyond objectifiability and in essence ineffable. The Vajrayana now goes a step further. It declares that once emptiness is recognized, we are by no means done with the world. Having seen that what we think about it is inapplicable, having given up on our version of how things are, we are still left with the question of what the world beyond emptiness may be like and how we are to be in it. For although the world may be empty, it continues to appear and to operate.

    The Vajrayana examines the nature of this reality “beyond emptiness.” Moreover, this examination is done in fulfillment of the bodhisattva vow. In spite of emptiness, one is still–perhaps even more—obliged to engage the world, for the welfare of all beings. Again, this leads to the tantric question: what is the world, beyond emptiness, like? The tantric vehicle is a way of finding out more about this ordinary world that we live in, in all of its profundity and sacredness, and how it can be used to help others on their spiritual paths.

  8. “Undoubtedly some Zen masters have gone far beyond emptiness, and returned to teach; but they seem to have written no systematic guides to what they found. Perhaps that’s restricted to oral transmission in koan study; I don’t know.”
    Hello, Im Alexander, I have been Zen stdent for 17 years and then practicing Dzogchen teachngs for 20 years. From my modest experience I can say you are right – Zne goes far ebyond emptines and this is final goal of all Zen lineages, not “some Zen masters” – through oral transmission and koan study. It is very clear, remaining in emptiness is mistake in Zen! ;-)
    One can see it clearly in famous koan of Zen Master Seung Sahn:
    “Somebody comes into the Zen center with a lighted cigarette, walks up to the Buddha statue, blows smoke in its face, and drops ashes on its lap. You are standing there. What can you do?”
    So, this is person attached to emptiness, very strongly manifesting their understanding and we have to teach them correct way!
    Thank you for your insightfull article and best wishes! :-)

  9. I would like to add, what the real difference betwen Zen and Tantra and Dzogchen is – it is that Zen does not teach how to work the energy level. This three are different method based on principle of renounciation, transformation asn sel-liberation.

  10. Hi David and all, I am spiritually awake having meandered through no “standard” route, I trusted myself, took an autonomous approach, mixed things, took what I needed and worked and to my surprise (because everyone tells us we need a guru, teacher, guide, empowerments, retreats) it just worked. I read various similar discussions to yours with interest. They also come up at Buddha at The Gas Pump.

    The question that came to me her is Why bother? It seems as good a question as any.

    Starting at the beginning in an idealized way….we have a problem we just don’t see, it’s hidden in plain sight (ignorance based suffering) , we eventually get more suffering than our denial can cover over, we seek and come across meditation (via friends, books, initial awakening etc)

    We do the exercises, we make progress, we hear of emptiness (or we don’t) ,

    We keep going, it seems to work, we do more, we get a glimpse of emptiness (we then see ignorance based suffering for the first time, it disappeared and came back) , we then know the process works,

    We put more effort in, look for more practices, get involved in deeper and deeper.

    If we don’t reject our practice after finding out that our teacher is (in one way or another) is a sick and twisted individual, and we get past the fact that Buddhism is full of people arguing and telling each other their way is the way (just like every other religion) then we carry on and make progress with the Hollywood view of Buddhism left behind.

    Eventually we develop the strength to have all of our trauma, terror, fear, loathing etc appear (dark nights of the soul, after the ecstasy the laundry etc) Nobody told us about that stage did they! Except, if you were fortunate enough to come across them, Paul Ingram and Jack Kornfield.

    At that point we may run away (again in plain sight) and hide in spiritual practice, academic musings, forum debates etc,

    Also at that point we might try to “tough it out” believing that Buddhism and meditation are a panacea for all ills (good luck with that one!!)

    If we look beyond meditation and don’t get stuck in trying to avoid every day life with the mantra (well it’s all empty so it doesn’t matter) then we can move to the next stage…

    We face the suffering mindfully through whatever method we choose.

    Then through facing it maybe at some point the ignorance based suffering ceases (it’s a falsity and thus needs energy to be “propped up”, don’t prop it up and it has to run out eventually)

    Then when the (suffering of ignorance) pot runs dry the initial problem is solved….the suffering ceases, more importantly because ignorance is exhausted the cause of future suffering ceases.

    The initial problem of suffering is solved.

    End of problem. No really end of problem because then there is contentment.

    There might be dregs or shadows of suffering still lingering in the pot (residue, fumes etc) but these evaporate over time with no striving, craving or forcing.

    We need nothing more than contentment. We don’t need bliss, happiness, joy, miracle powers etc etc etc,

    Once our mind isn’t trying to perpetually solve the problem of suffering there is space for listening, caring, compassion, acceptance, honesty, being wrong, being human, forgetting things, making mistakes, being insensitive etc You don’t stop having a personality, being charming or blunt or even critical. Mountain, no mountain, mountain again (with the cold, dirt, litter and sunshine)

    So, is there anything the other side of emptiness….contentment and whatever you want to place within it. Nothing more is needed as the problem that caused the search in the first place is solved. Suffering has ceased and the potential to cause suffering has ceased.

    Of course anything can be added to space that is free from suffering, anything and everything on and on and on and on and on…………

    But for what reason? Does this action help others to find their inner guidance and thereby remove their suffering through autonomous practice? Imho at that point this is the only question worth asking?

  11. Undoubtedly some Zen masters have gone far beyond emptiness, and returned to teach; but they seem to have written no systematic guides to what they found. Perhaps that’s restricted to oral transmission in koan study; I don’t know. (Maybe you do? Please leave a comment below!)

    There can be no “systematic guides” to emptiness. Emptiness cannot be explained, it can only be experienced. That’s why Zen avoids intellectual speculation or “chit-chat” around the subject….in trying to explain there is a risk of producing an idea about what emptiness is, but that idea can never correspond to the REAL emptiness (which is also fullness) experienced.
    Rational explanation also limits individual process of comprehension. And there is no rational explanation for what goes beyond words and intellectual understanding…
    As the Daodejing states: “The Tao which is known as Tao is not the real Tao”.
    If you want to know what “emptiness” is (I dislike this word, since the attempt to definition itself makes one “think” – haha! – that whatever it is it refers to something boring and pointless!) search for it. It is pointless to talk about it, to ask or to give answers about the true nature of this phenomenon…the result in doing this will always provide a “caricature” of the real thing.
    That’s why most westeners, so accustomed to logical reasoning and intellectual speculation, have this idea of Zen practitioners as strange beings who indulge in nothingness or behave like quasi-robots…
    Certain things cannot be explained, or understood. And that’s that! Difficult to accept for the average western mind, who arrogantly expects to grasp everything in its way….
    Humility is the key. Accepting one’s ignorance in front of the un-graspable mysteries of the Universe, of life itself…
    Most sages, from Buddha to the Sufi masters, kept silence in front of certain questions, or answered completely different things, non-pertinent to the original question. Just as the koans, their intention is not to provide answers, but to break the boundaries of logical thinking so that one can ultimately EXPERIENCE gnosis (or Silence, vulgarly said). And at the same time, that, ironically enough, was their answer! :-)
    That being said, my comments are completely futile with regards to the question.
    We should simply all stop discussing so much, and getting work done, sat silently on a chair or washing the dishes…

    Thanks for your post though. It was very entertaining.

  12. Hi Giuseppe, in response to your offer of a reply……..
    I’ll waffle less this time and get to the point…with a direct realization of emptiness I see the absurdity of the concept…..”going beyond emptiness.”
    Maybe it’s difference for “your” emptiness…..chuckle :-)

  13. “Ways of being are non-conceptual know-how that can only be transmitted by apprenticeship. ”

    Most expediently transmitted with the least chance of crashing and burning, sure. How did the first Dzogchenpa arise their non-conceptual know-how, if the only(!) method is through a Master-Student relationship?

  14. How did the first Dzogchenpa arise their non-conceptual know-how, if the only(!) method is through a Master-Student relationship?

    Interesting question.. the traditional answer would be that the knowledge originates with Kuntuzangpo, who is both the knowledge itself and a personification of it. This solves the logical puzzle at the cost of a highly dubious metaphysics!

    A Western-historical answer is that Dzogchen grew gradually out of experience with the practice of tantra; and it was a gradual collaborative improvisational accomplishment of many people over many years. Like most or all other knowledge!

  15. What an ecstatic website! (Finally)…I know this Man Great Man…He is my Teacher. He had an Indian Guru and when He passed – He had a 2 Buddhists Teachers. Later He became a Teacher. We live in ecstasy because of Him. Thank you for this Wonderful website! Mandy

  16. That’s funny—I hadn’t thought of it that way, but yes, the obvious deduction is that Enlightenment is to be found in the White-Gold Tower!

  17. Imagine you are on a road, not quite sure how you got there. Way off on the horizon you can see mountains but they are hundreds of miles away. In fact, unless that other person on the road had pointed them out, you might now even have noticed them. But he did and you are so thankful to him. So you go on, on the road. Spending the night out under the stars or in some guest hut. Sometimes the road dips and you loose sight of the mountains but you find you have an old map and it shows you that you are roughly heading in the right direction to hit the mountains even though you cannot see them from this dip. And sometimes the road rises and you can more clearly see those far, distant mountains because you aren’t so distracted by the trees and animals and rushing streams. Each day you need to hunt for food and sometimes this is easy and sometimes it is very difficult. But you keep going on and on. And the mountains are distant and far away. From time to time you meet people on the road, or shall we say path. Some of these people walk along side you for days and then peel off to other directions. Others you just bump into. And you converse with these people. And as you go on this path some of these people attack you or scare you or help you. And you help them. It takes a lot of work and gets quite complicated. You break your ankle and it really hurts and someone stops and straps it up and gives you crutches until you can walk better. Someone with whom you are walking gets a bad fever and you have to drop everything to nurse him back to health. The path itself goes through very dry country and through very tropical country where there are so many trees, bushes, shrubs and undergrowth that you can barely see where your feet need to go next. But still you get up the next morning and get moving. People die on the path and you bury and honor them. Children are born and you help them grow. And sometimes it feels like looking at the mountain is just a big distraction because there is so much going on but every now and then when you pass through a clear area, there it is and you notice it.

    And you wake up the next day and get moving. You can’t remember when you started walking it’s been so long. You forgot why you started but it doesn’t really matter to you because you have to get up each morning and move. You vaguely remember those days in the past when you thought you had found a nice spot with plenty of game to hunt and warm air and you thought you could stay there, there where there was an especially good view of those distant mountains.. But you realized that was silly. You couldn’t stay. And so step by step you move and it’s doesn’t get any easier but you expect the difficulty so it’s not so disappointing. And you notice more game and more people and more vegetation and more streams and rocks. And then slowly, slowly you begin to notice something else. At first, you can’t put you finger on it. The way your feet strike the ground feels different. This is not the difference between grass and bare soil and rock and mud and leaves and pebbles. You’ve walked over those surfaces and more thousands of time. It puzzles you a bit but still you put one step after another. And then after several more days you realize you haven’t seen the mountains for a very long time. And the new feeling in your feet and legs is rising ground. Not a little rise in road, not a big boulder to climb on but rising ground every where. The ground is steeper. And you try to see the mountains and no matter how hard you try, you cannot see them You are in the foothills and the mountains have disappeared. That map you used to use to guide you has gotten wet and dried and has been folded and unfolded so many times that when you pull it out of your backpack it crumbles into dust. Occasional thoughts flicker of back tracking to the last place on the path where you consulted the map when it was still readable so you might verify or check your direction. But you realize that is not possible.

  18. QL;RMOI Naive question: if I close my eyes and it’s all black and empty – is that “emptiness” – and the thing I was born with and is with me all the time etc ?

    Biology point: testosterone runs down gradually over a man’s life – along with this also runs down sex drive, desires, aggression and emotional intensity.
    I’ve seen nobody connect the simple and automatic process of getting old to their conquering of their selves/delusions/passions etc.
    How to separate the two ?
    Experiment: give the Dalai Lama massive testosterone shots and tell him he can’t have sex with some juicy young honeys – see if he can remain free of craving then ?

  19. if I close my eyes and it’s all black and empty – is that “emptiness”

    Probably not. Discussions of emptiness are both vague and diverse, though, so maybe someone taught that as emptiness at some point!

    I’ve seen nobody connect the simple and automatic process of getting old to their conquering of their selves/delusions/passions etc.

    I haven’t either, but I’ve privately made the same connection you did! I think this may explain quite a lot.

  20. Thanks Dave for the reply. Re: blackness – indeed someone pointed out to me that blackness is a thing, a quality – and (maybe) so are the directions that we can perceive within it if we aren’t completely still of mind. True enough, so we must be looking for something even less substantial, fundamental or abstract. Myself I get the intuition that that even more abstract thing is there too, all the time, just like empty space – born with it, live in it, die in it – not something that can be given to us, but maybe need help to realise it.

  21. …and so it might be interesting to compare the hormonal profiles of men and women, and at what age they have spiritual realizations. Last time I heard about it, women get randier as they get older and peak at around 35, whereas men are most charged at 18 or thereabouts. Could be wrong, and studies of female sexuality have an appalling history, so I expect I’m out of range there.
    (Sorry about the triplet posting, it’s a habit I find hard to shake)

  22. is this anything to do with Dzogchen ?

    Probably only inasmuch as both involve “formless” meditation practices. But so does Zen, among several other systems.

  23. …maybe a bit of a language problem in as much as people (inc me) refer to black space as void colloquially, and generally don’t talk of blackness as an existent quality (I hesitate to use the word “thing” although the Oxford dictionary has blackness down as a noun). I wonder how much this creates a blind spot in understanding a true void – or just reflects the general difficulty in getting beyond the experience of black empty space ?

    “Origin of void

    Middle English voyde, from Anglo-French, from Vulgar Latin *vocitus, alteration of Latin vocivus, vacivus empty, from vacare to be empty”

    I’m guessing that this word comes from the every day use “my field is void of sheep” etc, rather than any deeper philosophical root – so there may not even be a good English equivalent to the Tibetan or Indian meanings – unless there are shared Indo-European roots way back when.

    And if there are shared Indo_European roots, linguistically and culturally, way back past classical antiquity, then maybe there are better words that survive in English or at least Greek ?

  24. I was hoping someone would love me enough to explain the above… no bodhisatvas round here then ?

  25. I’m not sure I understand the question(s).

    The Sanskrit word is “shunya,” which is the everyday word for “empty,” like a pot that is empty because it has no water in it. “Void” is not a very good translation.

    Shunya is not usually associated with blackness. It’s associated with blueness, because the sky is blue if it’s empty of clouds, birds, stars, rainbows, and other non-blue things.

  26. Dear Mrs Duffer. Before searching for the void/emptiness search for the self that appears to exist seperate from the mind. Also witness the anxiety that exists in the torso due to this. Both hide in plain sight…like the fish not knowing the water.
    When you experience emptiness of the object, the object ceases to appear. Equally the associated feeling ceases.

    We “grasp” at our “self” This “self” is the one that appears to us but never existed.

    When wisdom arises in the mind, the non existent self ceases so the feeling of grasping at it ceases as well.

    In other words you’ll know emptiness when it arises in two ways…the object will cease to appear and the unpleasant feeling associated with the object will cease too (as it will have no basis.)

    It might sound technical but it’s very experiential.

    We know what something is by ruling out everything it is not. If we don’t rule out everything that is not the object we are left with some doubt.

    Is it a snake, or a rope. When we are certain it’s a rope the fear ceases. This requires the removal of doubt by careful examination.

    Mystical hinduism has some much simpler methods if you’re really interested.

    Ask yourself who is trying to figure out if blackness is emptiness? Who feels the doubt? Can I find this person or only atoms and transient thoughts?

    Emptiness removes suffering. When the black is perceived is there also a perception of some suffering ceasing too?

    Hope this helps…who knows.

  27. “Dear Mrs Duffer. Before searching for the void/emptiness search for the self that appears to exist seperate from the mind. Also witness the anxiety that exists in the torso due to this. Both hide in plain sight…like the fish not knowing the water.
    When you experience emptiness of the object, the object ceases to appear. Equally the associated feeling ceases.”

    Been doing that for decades.

  28. “Ask yourself who is trying to figure out if blackness is emptiness? Who feels the doubt? Can I find this person or only atoms and transient thoughts?”

    Good question that, because once you have the problem down to something as super simple as observation of the blackness of empty space, rather than something complicated like your stream of consciousness, any movement of a self stands out, and you’re right on the edge of selflessness – like you just have to prise some fingers from the ledge and you will fall all the way. I don’t suppose you even need to be in any absorption state, or need a calm mind, the emptiness should be right there anyway – because any monkey is aware that his life is lived within a space, and that that space is a quality itself perceived in the mind, and therefore a kind of object. So what’s beyond black inner/outer space should be readily knowable – which sounds like what I just read about Dzogchen. But I read that a lineage or transmission is important. So I should have one of those. On the other hand, if we are all One, then I’ll only be transmitting to myself anyway. So why bother with the guy in the orange robes ?

  29. …like when physicists say that empty space is full of energy, vacuum energy – though I don’t want to start using physics terms inappropriately, that something is literally the same rather than a handy analogy.
    But what happens when we do try and map buddhism on to physics ? Apart from a lot of haughty arguments :-)

  30. Sorry I don’t understand your “been doing that for decades post” it might be helpful to frame it in terms of your main point/question. That might help others come along this thread in the future. Are you saying you’ve had success. Or are you saying the practice hasn’t lead to results of direct experience (text is a bit rubbish in these kinds of dialogue…apologies.)

    Emptiness is a non affirming negative phenomena.
    Negative phenomena – it is a lack of the object that exists separate from the mind
    Non affirming – emptiness affirms nothing.
    It simply is the direct experience of the lack of an independent self (or any other object, mind, feeling etc.)

    Therefore neither “black inner space” or “black outer space” represent emptiness.

    Black is an object, inner is an object, outer is an object, and space is an object. The true nature (or mode of existence) of each is their emptiness.

    Another way to investigate this is to ask which came first black or the word “black.”
    Before the word black came into existence there was no black. Before the word “inner” came into existence there was no inner.
    This is the most subtle way of understanding creation. Oak tree is created when the phrase “Oak tree” is first used. Dependence on name.
    Less subtle is the understanding of creation based on cause and effect….oak tree is created from acorn. Dependence on cause.

    Physics (and other sciences) corroborate the meditators experience of wisdom/emptiness.
    Science only ever proves the last theory untrue. It then posits a new theory that in time will be proved untrue. Anything true will by definition always be found to be the same. Science finds impermanence. It finds the unfindability of the object. The atom because sub atomic particles, becomes energy. Space and time become “space time”. Seek and ye shall find describes the play of conventional appearance. It’s endless. Appearance just plays more stuff out forever. Whatever is observed is found to only have smaller parts that are not the object we intended to observe. Therefore appearance occurs (we witness it) but it can’t be said to be true. Emptiness is always the same and so is true. It’s mode of existence is as it appears. There is nothing deceptive about emptiness.

    That’s not entirely true because emptiness appears and yet it is also empty of inherent existence…it’s just mere appearance to.

    We suffer because we perceive objects as existing independent of mind. That’s just not true. When ignorance subsides that erroneous perception ceases.

    The emptiness of the “black inner space” is something worth exploring.

    If this is of no help please let me know. I’m not trying to teach my granny how to suck eggs here. it is fun discussing it though.

    As I mentioned before..Vedanta self inquiry and pointing methods are worth investigating, they are another way to recognise that which is always part of the appearance of now.

    Yes transmission is appearance appearing to itself, so is everything else too. It’s just that for some people transmission changes the appearance from discontentment to contentment. Both are just appearances happening to nobody…words are clumsy aren’t they.

    Within truth there are no words, they spring from delusion, from conceptual thought. That’s why they are not so useful. Hence sometimes the best teaching is the silence of the wakened teacher, it’s the purest communication.

  31. Coming back to the main heading of the blog post. Beyond emptiness…..emptiness describes the true mode of existence of objects. Therefore there is no “beyond emptiness” That statement is in itself meaningless. David are you posting in relation to the awakened practitioner and what there is to be had from life post awakening? If you are then that’s a very interesting topic to me as I’m making my way through that now. I think some people call it “integration.” Once we realize emptiness then whatever appearance arises simply arises whether it be tantric stuff, bars of soap or two flies crawling up a wall. The question I like to chew on with these things is “Why bother?” Gaining clairvoyance, or enhancing it can clearly bring benefit.
    Eg increased clairscentience can help with empathy, consideration, sensitivity to others etc no bad thing.
    Post awakening tendencies, habits, personal traits etc still play out. Some dregs of patterns can play out and deeply ingrained tendencies may persist. All within emptiness and deep contentment.
    That’s what I experience anyway. It’s very weird and after about 18 months I still find there is existence on two different levels at the same time. The ultimate and the conventional and the latter doesn’t always look pretty or nice but it still plays out as an aspect of emptiness…..emptiness is form, form is emptiness etc etc.

    I’m sure others have other experiences. So when you refer to the “territory beyond emptiness” I hope you are referring to life after awakening because there is no territory beyond emptiness….it’s a non affirming negative phenomena.

    Hopefully you’ll have the time to reply at some point, it’s an interesting post.

  32. I mean I’ve been meditating for yonks – observing, looking for self, cultivating energy etc. I agree with most of that, lots of good points, but I’m pretty sure there was black before there was the word for black. I don’t buy this “language creates reality stuff” at all. Tickle a baby and it will laugh without needing to know the word for tickle – it knows the difference between tickle and not-tickle pretty well. Nah, I don’t go for that one.

  33. If space can be warped a la relativity, then there is another sense in which it is a thing – you can’t bend an absolute nothing. Folk like to explain the modern world in terms of ancient scripture – but did buddha ever say anything about gravitational lensing ?

  34. I found a combined effort of reading books on emptiness, meditating, and discussing with others with a more refined advanced view was very useful. It moved me along the various stages of understanding and experiencing. Each step was a subtler understanding. The block is pride and closed mindedness. It seems you’ve come here to discuss but express quite a closed stance. On the other hand you’ve been friendly and thoughtful.
    It’s quite an unusual combination. Maybe you’re close to a breakthrough.
    Btw name does definitely create object. It’s blindingly obvious when the penny drops. It just takes clear explanation and contemplation.

    You can’t bend a nothing but emptiness isn’t nothing.

    It’s precisely because things are mere appearance that they function.

    The planet Saturn didn’t exist until it was named. Only ignorance struggles with this. Like only jealousy struggles with others qualities and posessions. Anger can’t percieve nice things. Wisdom can’t perceive non existant objects. Ignorance can only perceive non existent objects.

    What time is it on the dark side of rhe moon?

    What time is it at the middle of the earth?

    What is the universe expanding into if the universe is defined as everything?

    If there is only ever now what is time?

    Why is a butchers diagram of cuts made up of straight lines? Where does the leg finish and the torso start?

    It’s great that you’ve been meditating on emptiness for ages. Whilst we know the strength of our anger quite easily, the strength of ignorance is very hard to see and gauge. Therefore the changes in ignorance are very hard to see and gauge. In other words you might be doing really well. We only spot it when we get a breakthrough or perhaps if we leave the safe sures of our own certainty and set sail on the uncomfortable ocean of doubt. Letting go of certainty is crucial. Doubt shatters pride which in turn shatters ignorance.

    Maybe emptiness isn’t the place to start…maybe mindfulness of feelings is a good place, or before that therapy. Sometimes we can avoid feelings by being spiritual about other things. The best hiding place in the world.

    Obviously I don’t know you from Adam but it’s an interesting chat we’re having and I’m just throwing stuff out, if any resonates that’s handy, if not maybe this will be of use to a passer by sometime.

  35. Sure Saturn existed before it was named. I have memories from before I learned language – and I remember things definitely existed for me.

  36. OK thought experiment. You’re a one year old infant. You’re given a ball, which you fondle all the way around it’s perimeter. Does that seem like a separate object to you ? Or does the whole realm of your experience seem like one object – part of which seems like what you later learn is a ball, and part of which is kind of empty and wafty – which you later learn is and object called the atmosphere ?

    If you are claiming that the sense of separation and multiple objects is a product of language – how come enlightened people can name things, but stay enlightened ? How come buddha could even talk without losing all his authority ?

  37. …but I do get that shifts in self-perspective happen in mental silence when the mind and it’s habit of naming stops.

  38. Hi there,

    Harder to understand than emptiness of an object is the objects conventional nature. This deepening of experience is expressed in the zen saying “first there is mountain (ignorance), then no mountain (emptiness), then mountain again (mere appearance/conventional).”

    When all three are understood and realised appearance still plays out but it’s true mode of existence is known. Until that happens the mind is disturbed by the appearance of non existence objects (objects that appear to exist without the mind having any input in their existence.) The mind perceives objects that just aren’t there, it then wishes to possess them or be eternally separate from them, or be totally indifferent to them. This is the basis of even the smallest discontent/dissatisfaction.

    When the mind stills these mis-perceptions diminish in intensity. A bit like a good sleep diminishes the anger from the night before.

    Another sticking point that the mind of ignorance struggles with is that objects are only ever a collection of other objects. Eg Object A (Forest) is only a collection of Objects B (Trees.) None of the trees are in themselves the Forest. The Forest cannot be found, only the trees and each tree is not a Forest. The collection of “not forest” are given a name Forest but that is all…merely a name. When the concept Forest is created by humans there isn’t an extra object “Forest” added to the collection of trees. There is still only each tree.

    The same can be applied to Saturn and it’s atoms. None of the atoms are the object Saturn. Together they are merely a collection of “non Saturns”

    The emptiness of the object is it’s unfindability.

    If objects exist independent of mind then they can be found. We only find bits/parts that are not the object.

    Thus we can discern that objects do not come into existence independent of mind.

    This stuff becomes evident when the mind reading it has a reduction/absence of ignorance, it then becomes very obvious, simply true.

    This stuff can be very frustrating…been there..done that…it’s worth sticking with though….who wants inner turmoil when inner calm is an alternative.

  39. “If objects exist independent of mind then they can be found. We only find bits/parts that are not the object.”

    Don’t tell a scientist this, they get really snappy about it.

  40. David, do you have any experience with Kundalini yoga/meditation?
    Surprisingly it is the only resource I can find locally and while I read up a bit on its meshwork of Hinduist and Shakta tantra and will give it a try, I’d be curious to hear from the more experienced.
    Thank you,

  41. I’m afraid no, I don’t have any experience with that. I have only casual knowledge of Hinduism, and kundalini is not part of any Buddhist system, as far as I know.

  42. I am probably wrong but it seems to me that emptiness contains within it both that this is real and at the ame time unreal(for lack of better words) and that a true realization would merge wisdom and compassion as the same thing emptiness being the fact that this is illusion and compassion being the action which sprouts from that seeing that it does matter.delusion and enlightenment the same the freedom to act within both.and that all argument ceases and their really is not much to think about. Please correct me on my misunderstandings as I am sure I have many.

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